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הוסף מסר

5/2009

The case for atheism


  I should’ve written this long ago, and having spoken to many religious people online, I finally realised it.

  First of all, let me explain what I believe in: I am an athiest. I am a strict atheist. I firmly believe in the inexistence of any form of deity; being an atheist doesn’t mean I simply don’t belong to any organised religion, and certainly not that I ‘don't believe in anything’. (In fact, atheism is a rather broad umbrella term, but I shan’t go into it. You can look it up for yourselves.)

  ‘Why are you an atheist?’

  Because science goes nearer and nearer to proving that there is most likely no God. Everything is controlled by mathematics. Think about it: The laws of physics, chemistry, biology, &c. are all derived from it. The laws of math cannot be broken, even if there were a God. Can He draw a circle with a circumference that is not 2πr (r=the circle's radius). Sir Isaac Newton thought that the complexity of the Newton's law of universal gravity and its application to everything proves that ‘only a fool won't acknowledge His existance’ (or something idiotic of the sort), but later generations came to realise that this is far from being a proof of His existence (so if you were planning on saying that ‘scientists come to believe in God’, think again, and this time consider the fact that Stephen Hawking is agnostic-atheist).

  ‘Alright... Then who do you think made the world? Look at this computer you're using. Who made it? Naturally, you’d come to the conclusion something this complex had to be made out of forethought!’

  Funny, that was just about to be my next argument. This computer I’m using now was made by a human whose brain had chemicals running through it in a way that made him create the computer (I know that’s not exactly how it happened, but you get the point). He (let’s assume He’s male, just for comfort’s sake) was the result of his parents having sex, who are the result of their parents having sex, back in generations till you reach the common ancestors humans and monkeys shared (yes, there was such an ancestor. It’s been proven, and in fact, most people I know who doubt it are a living proof of the theory), then you go back to the previous step in evolution, back in time, back in steps, till you reach the first single-cell life-form on planet Earth, according to the laws of probability, biology, and chemistry. Besides, think of rocks on the sea shore: If you saw, among all the rocks there, a rock of perfect circular shape, you would believe it were the one created by a human, but in fact, it’s the other rocks that have a more complex shape. Simplicity implies forethought.

  ‘So how was that first single-cell life-form created?’

  It developed on the planet because the conditions were sufficient. The conditions were different from place to place and affected different animals differently, and that is why not all life-forms in the world are humans. It’s all a matter of chance following laws. The same applies for the creations of planet Earth and any other planet: They are just many particles following the laws of physics, that have been making them spread away from the location of the Big Bang and form planets. As evidence, think of the planets around you: Are there any life-forms on them? Not that man has discovered so far. That’s because the conditions happened to be different, and our planet happened to be the one planet with the outstandingly improbable conditions required to create life-forms. Think about a die with 5,000 sides, one of which is red and the rest are white, and throw it 5,000 times. Most likely you'll get the red side up only once, according to the laws of probability. Also, it is quite likely that there are other life-forms somewhere else in the universe, same way you'll get the red side up if you throw the die 10,000 times.

  ‘So who made those particles?’

  I believe that the particles were there, well, just because. I can ask you who made God. If you go back and back like that, you’ll never stop. What differs me from theists/deists is the assumption that the first ‘because’ step is the existence of the primal particles, instead of the assumption there is some sort of supreme being that is able to create matter/antimatter and energy (which, as far as I understood, are convertible into one another; I am no scientist, and what I am basing my beliefs on is the mostly common knowledge I possess of science) out of nothing. But my belief dismisses entirely the assumption of an entity superior to mathematics, because this just doesn’t make sense (as I've demonstrated with the Circle Argument above).

  And yet, perhaps there might be something superior to mathematics. Maybe that is the limit of my human capacity to comprehend. I really hate to think that. But who knows. Also, phenomena and events in our universe are affected by so many factors that there might be a divine intervention among them. I started thinking about it when I tried applying the above theory to free will and thought: If all our actions are a result of chemicals in our brains, how can we have free thought? Mathematics is a prison for us. Then I started thinking what could our conscience be made of besides simple chemicals, and came to think of some sort of radiation, with a frequency much below or above what is known to us, created by some chemicals inside one’s brain, or something like that. I began to think that perhaps this is how God, assuming he exists, affects the world―radiation. I started thinking how reincarnation can take place, and thought that perhaps it is projected into newborn infants at death. Maybe there’s some sort of magnet that takes in this radiation, which can also be the source of telepathy... Who knows. I certainly don’t; I really don’t know much about this subject.

  So, I explained why my idea of atheism is about as likely as the idea of theism, if not more. Though I haven’t succeeded in proving it beyond doubt, I have to break a few myths regarding the (first) three Abrahamic religions (I'm not talking about the Druze, because I know nothing of their religion) and prove them wrong:

  The Old Testament is actually a book filled with politics and foreign influences. The book of Kings, for instance, is far from being a historical book. It’s true that it has a grain of truth, but the real story is twisted around to suit political or religious agenda. A classic example is king Ahab, king of Israel, who was a king of a very powerful kingdom (at least military-wise, as can be learnt from the Battle of Qarqar), but the Bible doesn’t mention this, and displays him as some childish weakling instead. Also, you can see how the writer of the book tried to advocate a concentrated worship in Jerusalem, and tried to demonstrate (by twisting facts around) how a God-fearing king brings wealth to future generations, and the reverse. That is why it’s said that king Ahab eventually repented and was forgiven. Now, while Kings tries to show that one’s suffering is the result of one’s ancestors actions, Chronicles tries to show that one's suffering is caused by one's own actions, because during the Babylonian exile, people stopped caring for their actions, thinking they'd suffer regardless (Chronicles was an attempt to change this method of thought). That is why Chronicles describes the kings of Israel and Judea entirely differently: Solomon’s sins, for instance, are not mentioned in Chronicles.

  The Pentateuch also includes many human fallacies: It tries to deliberately show how the Jewish God is greater than the Babylonian gods. For instance, the only animal given namely in the first creation myth (have a look at the two first chapters of Genesis and you'll see each chapter has a different creation myth) is the crocodile, because the crocodile was an enemy of the Babylonian gods. It's as if the writer were saying, ‘Hah! Your gods had to fight the crocodiles, but our god is their master! He’s the master of the whole world!!’ This attitude, by the way, is far more apparent in the creation descriptions given by the prophets.

  One more note: It is said that ‘[T]he Bible spoke in men’s tongue’, meaning that the Bible was written in a language humans can understand, using expressions people used on a daily basis at the time, and that is why the prophets and even the Pentateuch often personificate God or use foreign metaphors to explain their point better. But still, almost all (if not all) modern Bible researchers today would agree that the Pentateuch’s language and difference between the laws shows that it was not written as a whole, although the Pentateuch itself says that it was given wholly when the Israelites wandered in the desert (for instance, Deutronomy talking about care for Leviites shows that it was written at a time of concentrated worship, when the Leviite priests who worked in little worshipping places across the countries were unemployed poverts). I, for one, find some parts of the prophecies much harder to read than Genesis, which is dated as the last book in the Pentateuch. Why would God decide to give the Israelites a book in a language that would only be used in a few centuries as a book of laws?

  The Qur’án, however, should be noted as a book that states it shows the ‘true’ word of God, cleansed of politics and foreign influences, yet the Qur’án too states that Evolution did not take place (Jewish tradition can somehow comply with it, and the UCC relies on Psalms 139 which can be seen as very subtly hinting at it). Muhammad was quoted as saying, ‘The male semen is white and the female semen is yellowish. When the two meet and the male semen overpowers the female semen, it will be male; when the female semen overpowers the male semen, it will be female,’ and, ‘He is created of both, the semen of the man and the semen of the woman. The man’s semen is thick and forms the bones and the tendons. The woman's semen is fine and forms the flesh and blood.’ This, mind you, is a sahíh quote from the Hadíth (see here for yourself). Besides, the Qur’án starting mostly with scaring people and the constant reminder of the importance of faith instead of actual proof given (try reading the first súra in the Qur’án after súrati ’l-fátiha). This is pretty much Q.E.D.: ‘Yahweh’ is a lie.

  This way or another, we're all back at square one. Now we just have to hope science will bring us to light and reveal the gods’ existence or inexistence once and for all.

 

  Unum diem...

נכתב על ידי , 27/5/2009 23:24  
10 תגובות   הצג תגובות    הוסף תגובה   1 הפניות לכאן   קישור ישיר   שתף   המלץ   הצע ציטוט
תגובה אחרונה של qirszhjnx ב-17/2/2013 10:04
 



One of the most eye-opening conversations I've had in a while


  I think it speaks for itself.

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!
You: Hello. =3
Stranger: anybody?
Stranger: nice
You: ASL? ^^
Stranger: what time is it?
Stranger: me?
You: It's 13:06 here.
Stranger: you are in europe
You: Nope ^^
Stranger: then where?
You: The country I live in participates in the Eurovision, though :P
You: I'm 17/m/Israel (not a Zionist; I support a two-state solution with maximum separation and acknowledged minority in both states, with me living in Iceland; and before you say something stupid about Israel, here's my blog, it'll clarify some things for you: http://israblog.co.il/573275).
Stranger: isreali?
You: Unfortunately so...
Stranger: great people
You: Hah! You don't know them like I do.
Stranger: very intellegent
You: XD
You: Where are you from?
You: How old are you?
Stranger: North Korea
Stranger: 26
You: Heh, if you saw the idiots in my school...
You: You're really from North Korea? O_O
Stranger: you can kick them right in the ass
Stranger: yes
You: I didn't know you have internet there...
Stranger: North Korean Army officer
Stranger: why?
Stranger: who said that?
You: Say, what do they think of gays where you live?
Stranger: they are just people
You: I read lots of horrible stuff about North Korea...
Stranger: nice and bad
You: Do they get to marry in North Korea?
Stranger: that is propanganda of the US
Stranger: if you like to
You: Why does the US dislike North Korea?
Stranger: but i am single
Stranger: because we have nuke
You: Can one man marry another in North Korea?
Stranger: yes
Stranger: why not
You: Wow...
Stranger: you mean gay marriage?
Stranger: no
You: Oh.
Stranger: i mean between two sex
You: Oh.
You: Why don't they let two men marry one another?
Stranger: because it is not a good way of life
Stranger: unnatural
You: It's working rather well for those who have married this way.
You: It's very natural.
You: Almost all kinds of animals known to mankind do it.
Stranger: they can not produce kids
You: They can adopt.
Stranger: adopt is another thing
You: Think about it: Gays can adopt unwanted babies.
You: Instead of letting girls abort, they have someone to give their babies to.
Stranger: but they still need a woman to give birth
Stranger: i need to go for dinner
You: Do you have MSNM?
Stranger: nice talking with you,
You: Mine's seto1@walla.co.il, I'd love to go on talking to you ^^
Stranger: MSN?i don't use it quite often
You: Add me anyway.
You: I've never spoken to someone from NK before!
Stranger: are you a school boy?
You: Yup.
You: I'm a 12th grader.
Stranger: don't give you personal info to stranger
You: You live in North Korea, you can't really do anything to me.
Stranger: it is not safe foryou
You: Especially not with such little info.
Stranger: i dont mean me!
Stranger: may be anyone
You: You only know I live in Israel and that I'm 17...
You: I know whom to give what info.
You: What's your MSNM, then?
Stranger: to give your info to a North Korean Army man? they are so bad, as uncle sam says
You: Uncle Sam says lots of crap.
Stranger: i suggest we don't pursue this conversation for you good
You: Uncle Sam thinks that circumcision is healthy.
You: I'd like to hear your side of the story.
Stranger: about what?
You: Uncle Sam calls you a dictatorship, a '1984'-esque dystopia...
You: I'd like to hear what you have to say.
Stranger: esque dystopia this word means?
You: '1984' is a book that talks about some sort of country in which the government brainwashes everyone, watches everyone the whole time, and tortures to death anyone who opposes it.
You: '-esque' means 'like [...]', and 'dystopia' is like a utopia, only reversed (all bad).
Stranger: well,that is a book, not reality
You: That's true.
You: It's a great book.
Stranger: north korea is just a country, have nice and bad people like anywhere else
You: But the US picks on it and says that it's a dictatorship that takes away all your freedoms.
Stranger: US wants to potray us like hell, we are not
You: Can you say in North Korea that you don't agree with what the government does?
You: Can you move out of North Korea without having to sneak away somehow?
Stranger: if i have my opinion, i will speak out, but harsh critisism is not comforming to custom in Asian countries, also in China and Japan
You: Do you have enough food to eat every day in order not to starve?
Stranger: move out? i need a visa
Stranger: food, yes
Stranger: starvation is what you saw on US news
You: I've heard that when a European reporter went to North Korea and said that the leader is much fatter than the people, he was thrown into prison for a few months.
Stranger: that is a bad joke, not funny at all
You: If you say that, what will happen?
Stranger: i don't want to say that, i respect the leader
Stranger: but if i say it as a joke, it is acceptable
You: I see...
You: But isn't that true? I've seen pictures.
You: He does look healthily plump...
Stranger: i don't know what pic you saw, but he is not healthy now, he suffered a stroke
You: Oh...
You: If you say that the leader is fatter than the rest of the people, not as a joke, what will happen?
Stranger: we have nuke, which threats US interests in Asia, that is why they hate us
You: Why do you need nukes?
Stranger: to protect ourselves
Stranger: Isreal has nuke too, to protect themselves
You: Against what?
You: Israel really needs it. It has countless enemies.
Stranger: against possible US invasion
You: Oh...
Stranger: Isreal had its first nuke in 1967
You: But if you don't have nukes, why would they need to invade?
You: How do you know that?
You: I didn't know that.
You: This is secret policy.
Stranger: i serve in the army
Stranger: US need to press China, Korean panisula is a good base to do that
Stranger: US don;t want us, they want to press CHina, that is their real purpose
Stranger: US tried once in 1950
Stranger: korean war
Stranger: us failed to take all korean as China and USSR intervened
You: Huh...
You: But you still haven't answered my previous question.
Stranger: what
You: If you say that the leader is fatter than the rest of the people, not as a joke, what will happen?
Stranger: people will think i go too far
Stranger: and they will criticize me
You: Will you be sent to prison?
You: Will you be outcasted?
Stranger: no
Stranger: no
Stranger: that is too ridiculous
You: Huh...
You: I've seen a documentary about North Korea.
Stranger: leaders are respected in asian political system
Stranger: so what they say?
You: They showed there how the teacher teaches the children about how great the leader is. She praised him as if he were God Himself or something.
You: Christ, he's only human!
Stranger: he is a old man
Stranger: not god
Stranger: nobody in here say he is
Stranger: only US says so
You: Heh...
Stranger: US is very powerful with its press
Stranger: medias
You: ('media' is plural, 'medium' is singular)
Stranger: media
You: What would the procedure be if you wanted to move out?
Stranger: thanks
You: =3
You: You really blow my mind, you know?
You: It's a whole new perspective...
Stranger: if i want to move to us, that is impossible
You: And what about Europe?
Stranger: what? just a north korean on line, stunts you?
Stranger: no, they are allies
You: The documentary I saw was British.
You: And it certainly wasn't flattering.
Stranger: Britain is dog of uncle sam
You: And you answered a lot of questions I had about North Korea...
You: Hah :P
Stranger: britain says what ever us likes
You: I thought all of Europe was pretty much on their side.
Stranger: yes
Stranger: us is rich
You: So how can you move to Europe?
You: How is Europe allied with NK?
Stranger: no, not to US friends
You: So you can only move to Eastern Europe then?
Stranger: North Korea is poor and small
Stranger: and CHina , and south east asian
Stranger: and african countries, but they are too hot
You: Heh...
Stranger: US hates us, that makes us hard to go any where
Stranger: US is powerful and has many dogs
You: I see...
You: What about Israel?
You: Can you move to Israel?
Stranger: Isreal is certainly on US side
You: And France? The French aren't exactly fond of the Americans.
You: Or Arab countries?
Stranger: yes, possible, but i don;t have money to travel that far
You: Can you raise money to travel that far?
Stranger: hard, I need to save money for my own business after i retire from army
You: I see.
Stranger: we are poor, but not as poor as US says
Stranger: as you can see, i have money to buy computer, that means I am not on the edge of starvation
You: Oh, it's your personal computer...
You: I've heard that the television must always stay on and broadcast propaganda.
Stranger: yes, I have one in office, but that is army property
You: I see...
Stranger: no, that is stupid
You: Do many people have computers with internet where you live?
Stranger: I watch US shows, prison break
Stranger: yes, computer is not quite expensive
Stranger: young people without PC, they will die
You: Hah :P
You: Do you use Windows XP?
Stranger: using it
Stranger: vista is too slow
You: Isn't that manufactured by a big American corp?
Stranger: i will get a Window 7 when available
Stranger: yes
You: So how come they let you use it? O_O
Stranger: we don;t hate us as they hates us
You: Interesting...
Stranger: we don;t hate them
You: But they're the ones making you poor, aren't they?
Stranger: we think US people is blind by its gov
You: I see...
Stranger: we can blame our poverty on other people, we must work our way out
Stranger: can not
Stranger: i mean
You: Then why is NK poor?
Stranger: facing such a powerful enemy, we spend too much on military hardware
Stranger: we have to
You: Like Israel ~_~
Stranger: yes
Stranger: very true
Stranger: but you have powerful friends
You: What do they think of Israel where you live?
You: There's the US, and... that's it, pretty much.
You: Israel is surrounded by enemies.
Stranger: Isreali people is extremely tough
Stranger: arabic army is like crap
You: They're mostly extremely stupid.
You: XD
Stranger: they are not army, they are mobs
You: Israel couldn't've survived all these wars without American financial aids.
Stranger: yes, that is true
Stranger: we don;t hate average american people, i often chat with them here
You: Israelis are a bunch of self-righteous ignorant fools who still think they're some chosen people whom God protects. Even if they're not very religious, you can almost always find remnants of this way of thought.
Stranger: Isreal is strong because of its intellegent people, not of god, god does not really exist
You: Try telling an Israeli that circumcision is bad... He'll think it's some important part of tradition, that it's healthy (it's not; the US corps say it is because they get hundreds of dollars for every such operation), whatnot. Most of them wouldn't listen.
You: It's strong because of the US, not because its people are intelligent.
You: My excellent English is the result of speaking it at home.
Stranger: at home? why
You: The Israeli education system looks like crap.
Stranger: why not Hebrew
You: My mum went to high school in Chicago, and because she's such a genius she got to a native speaker's level within three years. She spoke to me English since birth, and my father spoke to me Hebrew (though I sometimes speak Hebrew with my mother).
Stranger: Isreali people have a long history to be proud of
You: To be ashamed of, maybe.
You: Religious fanaticism...
You: Horrible conformism...
You: Homophobia...
You: Mysogenia...
You: Xenophobia...
Stranger: that is faith, i dont believe in god, but i respect faith
You: There's a limit to what you can do in the name of faith.
You: Circumcising your baby, for instance, is beyond that limit, because you're enforcing your own faith upon your baby.
You: Besides, the Pentateuch is most likely a big lie.
You: Pretty much any modern Bible researcher would say that.
Stranger: if you dont like, you can choose not to believe in
You: Yes, but I can't get my foreskin back, can I?
Stranger: like me , i don;t believe in any god, i believe in my rifle
You: If you believed in God, would people accept it?
Stranger: yes, faith should be respected
Stranger: but most of us don;t believe in god
Stranger: because we don't think he exists
You: I don't either.
You: But some people will beat you here in Israel if you say you don't.
Stranger: Isrealis believe in the same god as US?
You: A few idiots in my school tried to stone me for wanting to be Christian a few months ago.
You: Ay, but they don't believe in Jesus.
You: They say Jesus was a big phony.
Stranger: jewrish religion, like Kyle?in south park?
You: Most Israelis can't tell the difference between German and Nazi.
You: XD
You: Yes, like Kyle :P
Stranger: germans are not all Nazi
You: Of course not.
You: But the common Israeli often lacks that distinction.
Stranger: so they are grateful to US in WWII?
You: They can't distinguish between Christian and anti-Semetic, or anti-Semetic and Nazi...
You: Pretty much.
You: Britain did a better job, but they also had a mandate in the middle :P
Stranger: US was trying to take german down, and protect they interest in europe ,that is all
You: That's pretty true.
You: But the common Israeli child would tell you that WWII was to save the Jews.
Stranger: WWII is not a story about savior
You: The US also tried to defend itself, you know.
Stranger: well, US saved jews, that is true
You: Indeed.
You: Anything else you'd like to know about Israel?
Stranger: what happens when eric cartman shows on tv
You: Huh?
Stranger: he is trying to play hitler
You: Oh.
You: They show him. There's no real problem with him.
You: Israelis tell lots of Holocaust jokes.
You: 'Where was the highest concentration of Jews during the Holocaust? In the atmosphere!'
Stranger: holocaust is sad, jews need to protect themselves
You: For about 2,000 they didn't, and now they got to Israel and became horribly militant.
Stranger: so you build nuke in 1967, without US help
You: Huh...
You: Is military service obligatory in NK?
Stranger: i have a piece of work to do, hang on, i will be back
You: It is in Israel, but many people evade service.
You: You can get a doctor's approval that you're not healthy enough...
You: Or a psychologist that can say you won't fit in properly...
You: Some run away...
You: (From Israel, that is)
You: Others pretend they're Buddhist/Haredic and don't go...
You: (Buddhist is rare, though :P)
You: Some go to prison because they try to run away or say that they're pacifists.
You: Usually not going to the army bears a strong social stigma.
You: Kinda like in South Korea.
You: Every Independence Day there's some new artists who wants to perform and people protest aloud against him/her coming to perform without having done their military service.
You: I got released for medical reasons, but I'm going to volunteer in the Intelligence.
Stranger: i'm back
Stranger: let me read
You: Oh! I nearly forgot to mention: What about transgenders?
You: (Like Mr. Garrisson)
Stranger: young people need to serve the country here
You: (Or Mrs. Garrisson, if you will.)
Stranger: that is not cool
You: Some people are born this way.
You: With the mind of the opposite sex.
Stranger: i don't like fake man or woman
You: They often kill themselves when they reach puberty...
You: It's not fake.
Stranger: it is
Stranger: fake
You: Their brains are wired like the opposite gender.
Stranger: that is what they think
You: They don't change their sex because they just feel like it.
You: It's well-acknowledged throughout the world...
You: Read this: http://venusenvy.comicgenesis.com
Stranger: i still don't appreciate any fake pussy
Stranger: i don't like that
You: Vagniae and penes are made of the same embryotic tissues.
You: The clitoris and the glans, the shaft and the labia minora, the foreskin and the clitoral hood...
You: Same ingredients.
Stranger: but human can not create them , only nature will
You: Nature made a little mistake, then.
You: What would you prefer: These people shooting themselves in the head, or these people getting 'fake pussies' and living happily?
Stranger: i respect their choice, but i dont like it
You: What about women with androgen insensitivity syndrome?
You: Are they women or men?
You: Do they get to do such operations in NK?
Stranger: i think not
Stranger: have to go to China to do such thing
You: Huh...
You: I knew they did it in Thailand, didn't know they do it in China...
You: *did it in China
Stranger: they do it in CHina, i saw on news
You: Huh...
You: Interesting.
Stranger: not many did it through
You: What if you say you don't want to serve in the military in NK?
You: If you want to, say, help children instead because you don't believe in armed fighting?
Stranger: most young man i know are willing and proud to join army, with US at our door, we can not afford to shun our duty
Stranger: if you get admitted to medical school (to help kids like you said), you don't need to join army
Stranger: go to college or army, your choice, young people need to be useful
Stranger: stay at home doing nothing is not acceptable
You: I see.
You: What about elections?
You: If you say you want a democracy, what will happen?
Stranger: nothing will happen
You: Do you vote?
Stranger: asian people is not like western peoplr
Stranger: i did
Stranger: but i don;t really care about voting
You: What do you mean?
You: Is there another candidate running against your leader?
Stranger: i think it is best for my country if i do my work good, anything else will not be my concern
You: Is there an opposition party?
Stranger: no, no one, we like him, i feel safe when he is in position
You: Then how do you vote if there's no other choice? O_O
Stranger: when a country is so poor and small, there is really no room and resources to waste on political competitions
Stranger: i vote to show my support, not vote means i don;t like him
You: So basically, your elections are referenda meant only to re-approve your support of the leader?
You: So if many people don't go to vote, it'll mean that he's not as popular?
Stranger: yes
You: I see...
Stranger: right
Stranger: actually we don;t care much about politics, that is too high up for me
You: But if you wanted to say that you think being allied with the US is beneficial for you, and wanted to run for president to do so, will you be able to?
You: Why are you so against joining forces with the US?
Stranger: people will think i am the No.1 fool in this country
You: But will you be able to do so?
Stranger: we are not against the US, we just want to stay out of its conflict with China
You: Oh.
Stranger: me? pronounce that I want to run for president?
You: Yes.
Stranger: then i am a fool
You: In theory.
Stranger: i'm a soldier, i protect people, that is my duty and capability, any thing bigger needs a more intellegent man
You: In theory, if you say, 'I think making relations with China worse is worth it, because the US's aid can help us,' and run for president thinking this way, what will happen?
You: Well, not you specifically.
You: Anyone else.
Stranger: people will throw stone at me, i guess
You: Why would they do so?
Stranger: because US is not going to do any good for us
You: It does good for Israel, and for many other countries...
Stranger: they want to control us, so as to make a base in asian agianst CHina
You: Why not NK?
You: But they want to give you money and boost you up in order to do so, don't they?
Stranger: we want to be out of the US-China conflict
Stranger: a country should have the pride to be on its own feet, not on the feet of others
You: I see.
You: But still, don't you have a right for an opinion of your own?
Stranger: if we accept US money, it is not free
Stranger: string will be attached
You: Without being afraid of getting stoned, or even arrested?
You: But you might think that the money is worth a few strings.
Stranger: arrested may be too far, not people will critize such idea
You: But that's really besides the point.
Stranger: yes, but not worth our independence
You: They'll criticise, they won't like the idea, but will they accept your right to think so?
Stranger: US aid is not unconditional
Stranger: i don't know, they sure will be angry at such idea, especially who lost relatives in korean war. just like Rabin wants to make peace with arabic countries, he got gunned down
You: True, but by one man.
You: One fanatic.
Stranger: i guess more people share his views
Stranger: not only him
You: Most people were supportive of him (he won the elections), and an even greater majority was at least willing to accept the fact that he's allowed to speak and do what he wants (especially as the PM!).
You: Even if they would be angry, would they accept the fact you think otherwise?
Stranger: he is brave man, trying to make peace, but i don't think isreal can make peace with arabic countries
You: It's like Voltaire said: 'I disagree with what you say, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say so.'
Stranger: yes, the fact is some one come up with a bad idea, and got stoned, that is the fact
You: Israel has made peace with Egypt and Jordan.
Stranger: only after Israel have nukes, Egypt kown it can not get anything from war with Israel
You: That's not true.
Stranger: it tried
Stranger: war with a nuke power is not a wise idea
Stranger: so it quit
You: But if Israel used its nuke power...
You: Everyone in the world who has nukes thinks twice before using it.
Stranger: Israel was on the edge of using it in 1973
Stranger: that time was very dangerous
You: Whoa... O_O
Stranger: lucky, Israel army fought Arabics back
You: You do realise that if I tell lots of what you say here to people, I'll get thrown into prison?
You: This is classified information you're revealing...
Stranger: I work for army, i need to study military history
You: Whoa O_O
You: Lemme ask you this:
You: What if you say you want to accept American stringed money for a limited time, and re-unite with South Korea?
Stranger: 1973 was the last attampt to take Israel down, after that, Israel's nuke is mature, and no body dares to challenge it
You: Or something like that.
You: No, that's not true.
Stranger: then I am a big fool again
You: Remember the two Lebanon Wars, the two Gulf Wars, and the recent war in Gaza?
You: And the two Intifadas?
You: Well, the Intifadas don't count...
Stranger: US is not going to let korea re-unite, a strong korea is not in the interest of US, nor CHina
Stranger: those are not all out wars
Stranger: they are conflicts
You: Actually, only the two Gulf Wars count; the rest were either initiated by Israel or fought against guerillas.
You: The two Gulf Wars were wars.
You: Iraq bombed Israel in the first and threatened to bomb it in the second.
Stranger: gulf war is not directed toward israel
Stranger: yes, that is called "bonding strategy"in military terms,only to make chaos and drag more country into war
You: Hah :P
Stranger: such attack is like terrorist attack on bigger scale, not aim at destroying a nation, but to make terro
Stranger: once israel fights back, more arabic country will enter the war, giving iraq a little room to operate
You: I see...
Stranger: those bombs are not enough to destroy isreal
Stranger: only to irritate it
You: Anyway, if one wanted to run for president in NK, nevermind the alternative one's presenting, would one be able to do so?
You: ?
Stranger: i don't know where to sign up to be president
Stranger: guess that is not the way
You: How will people accept it?
You: Will they respect your will for an alternative?
You: Even if it gets them really cross, like increased co-operation with the US?
Stranger: i thing if i want to be president, i need to work the way up in the exsiting system. even in democratic US, people don't go on street and get elected as president, they need a lot of money to do campaign
You: In theory.
You: Assuming you've made it.
You: You're in the opposition party.
You: What happens?
Stranger: any more involvement in US-China will be a bad idea, we just need to stay away from both
You: That's besides the point!
Stranger: there is no other parties
You: My question is, can you do it in theory without getting shunned, gunned down, or arrested?
You: Can you /start/ another party?
Stranger: be president?
Stranger: no, i guess not
You: Run for president?
You: Start a party?
You: If not, you just have to accept the fact you're living in a dictatorship.
Stranger: yes, may be , but we like our way, dictatorship, so what?
You: It's fine, but what if you don't like what's going on in your country?
You: You can't offer any alternative.
Stranger: so that means we are inferior? i don't think so.
You: A dictatorship is a risk.
Stranger: i can not
Stranger: but other people can
Stranger: an average US citizen, can offer what alternative?
Stranger: can he bring down the gov?
Stranger: can he really get ellected as president?
You: An average US citizen can speak his mind and try to get into politics.
You: He has to work his way up, but still.
Stranger: yes, many people in US don't like war in iraq, but it stays on ,so where is the democracy?
You: And he can start his own party, even if it won't stand much of a chance before the two big parties.
You: They don't like it, so they go rally in the streets.
You: They write their opinions online.
You: They write to the newspapers.
You: And they vote for Obama, who promises to end it.
Stranger: and changed nothing
Stranger: and Obama changed nothing
Stranger: troopes are still in iraq
Stranger: Obama said CHANGE, when?
You: He hasn't changed a thing /yet/. He has the economy to deal with first.
You: Oh, wait, he did /start/ making a change.
You: He bought AIG, remember?
Stranger: US is richer than us, but that does not mean they are better in all other way
Stranger: yes, with borrowed money
You: Still.
You: He's trying to make a change.
Stranger: at taxpayers cost
Stranger: to save wallstreet
You: He's changed the US's foreign policy...
Stranger: he is
You: He's made the US more social-democratic...
Stranger: may be, but US still has military presence in other country, that is invasion
You: The US should invade Afghanistan.
You: That's a fanatic country infested with terrorists, in which half of the people there are living in standards below slaves'.
You: But we're taking another unnecessary detour.
Stranger: why US can not leave choice to native people? why US care? because they have interest in those countries, there are many poorer countries in the world, but they dont have what US wants, so US leave them alone
You: Does the common NK citizen have the same rights as the US citizen?
You: And even if it's for their own interests, it brings good results.
You: The US's interests saved millions of lives during WWII.
You: It saved many East Asian countries from becoming annexed to Japan.
Stranger: infested with terrorist? from who you know that? before US invasion, anybody know any terrorist from Afganistan?
You: The Taliban, remember?
You: And you're ignoring my question again.
Stranger: yes, they did bomb japan and end the war, but that does not mean they care about asian people, only because japan challenged its dominance on pacific
You: They brought good results, nevermind the cause.
You: Now answer my question:
You: Does the common NK citizen have the same rights as the US citizen?
Stranger: rights, yes, every country has its own discretion, why you think the US values is better?
You: Does the common NK citizen have the same rights as the US citizen?
Stranger: why should we compare ourselves with US? you tell me this
You: Not necessarily with the US.
You: Any other democratic country.
You: Say Israel.
You: Or Ireland.
You: Or France.
Stranger: US people like to eat they food, and if I don't like US food, means I am a looser?
You: That's not what I'm asking.
Stranger: it is, why should we compare with others?
Stranger: we are a poor country
You: OK, let me rephrase the question:
Stranger: can you name a poor country like us, which stand right up to US?
Stranger: we are poor, so we have less to enjoy
You: Can you go into politics, write to the newspapers, start a blog, or rally in the streets opposing what your government does?
You: Without getting shunned, gunned down, or arrested?
Stranger: if we spend enery on politics, like US people do, we won't be able to afford to cost.
You: I see.
You: Kinda like early Israel...
You: With Mapai...
You: And by the way:
Stranger: why should I do that when my duty is to protect my country?
You: Cuba.
You: Because you have another idea about how to protect it.
You: /Another idea/.
You: Now I really have to go ><
You: The librarian here wants to lock up ><
Stranger: poor country can not afford democracy, like India, democracy did little good for Indian,
Stranger: ok, good luck
You: It's been very interesting and enlightening to talk to you, but I really have to go.
You: Thank you very much.
Stranger: see you
Your conversational partner has disconnected.
  Unum diem...
נכתב על ידי , 20/5/2009 15:20  
7 תגובות   הצג תגובות    הוסף תגובה   הוסף הפניה   קישור ישיר   שתף   המלץ   הצע ציטוט
תגובה אחרונה של Coralitos ב-2/7/2009 18:25
 





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